Originally posted by pr0lifik the ones that SWAW is selling are they blank brembos that you had slotted and drilled or are they a different brand of rotor? -pr0
I am not a brake engineer. I do, however, race a car ~25 weekends a year. I do know quite a bit about brakes and what stops your car.
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Crossdrilled rotors-by design, crossdrilled rotors were designed for track use.
True. Crossdrilled rotors were developed for racing in the 50s when brakes pads sucked. They would off-gas at relatively low temperatures. The holes gave the gas somewhere to go. If not, it would get trapped between the rotor/pad and the pad would not make contact with the rotor. That is called "fade". Modern brake pads do not do this. True, if you take a street pad to the race track and exceed it's operating temperature, you can get it to fade. But I challenge you to get a Hawk Blue, or Porterfield R4 brake pad or other dedicated racing pad to fade. Ever. Simply, crossdrilled rotors fix a problem that no longer exists.
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Why? Because, when you drill holes in your rotors, they are designed to dissipate heat (not to rid of brake dust as most people think).
Surface area dissipates heat. The amount of surface you create from drilling holes is almost insignificant compared to the initial surface area of a standard OE vented. In additionx-drilled rotors will reach higher peak temperature because you are removing metal from the rotor. The metal is what absorbs the heat. Plus, you are reducing pad/surface interface. Tell me again why this is a good idea?
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I ask any local non-believers to take a ride in my car, I would be happy to allow them to drive it just so they can tell you about the brakes
I do not doubt your car stop well. Obviously, if you replace busted/worn out OE parts with new x-drilled parts, of course it's going to stop better. What I do doubt is that it stops better than regular new OE-style non-drilled/slotted rotors. I *garuntee* it does not.
Don't believe me? Will you believe an engineer that designs automotive braking systems?
Your tires are stopping your car. Not the pads. Not the rotors. Not the SS brakelines. The tires. TIRES!!! Want to stop quicker, get better TIRES and stop wasting money on expensive-as-hell rotors.
Just trying to educate you guys.
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In comparison, the 80 dollar EBCs ate away in less than 1100 miles in normal everyday driving..
Got you beat. EBC Redstuff. Worn to backing plate in 50 (fifty, five-zero) track miles. On standard rotors. Those pads suck.
Sorry, have to point out you are wrong, and here is why...
A)Surface area absorbs heat (you know how rotors get WARPED?) Ask anyone with an extensive knowledge in physics/kinetic energy area. I promise.
B)As tested by Super Street/Turbo magazine (look up August 2k, and January 2k1 respectively), when heat was measured between stock rotors and x-drilled AND slotted rotors (key words here, both), average temperature was LOWER on the x-drilled/slotted than factory. Standard test.
C)From personal experience (no testing on this one, as I stated), my vehicle does stop better, especially since I've already had a set of new OE, non-crossdrilled/slotted rotors on my car and it wouldn't stop for shit.
D)Tires stop your car? If that was true, how come "better" tires don't improve the braking distances (read any shootout of aftermarket tire/wheel combos after being added on a car vs. stock-you don't see any tested proof of this-none that I've seen anyway anywhere). I suppose we should do away with brakes then? (not trying to be sarcastic but come on.....) Read about what tires really do at:
PS: This quote makes me think twice from one of your link
"small changes in speed can have a huge impact on brake temperatures!"......
The Brake Engineer
Mass of the rotor absorbs heat (higher speeds, more heat. THAT'S why touring cars etc. have 13" rotors. Do you see any of them with x-drilled? Show me one picture please) Surface area dissipates the heat. Yes, I am a degreed engineer and studied thermodynamics.
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PS: This quote makes me think twice from one of your link
"small changes in speed can have a huge impact on brake temperatures!"......
The Brake Engineer
So what about that makes it worthy of a "rolleyes"
Answer me one question: If you can lock the tires with the OE brakes and OE rotors and OE pads, what are you going to gain by more stopping power? Lock the brakes quicker? You already have more braking power than the tires can handle since you locked them up!
Other than a good general write up about tires, I fail to see how that link supports your arguments or refute mine.
Mass of the rotor absorbs heat (higher speeds, more heat. THAT'S why touring cars etc. ahve 13" rotors. Do you see any of them with x-drilled? Show me one picture please) Surface area dissipates the heat. Yes, I am a degreed engineer and studied thermodynamics.
So what about that makes it worthy of a "rolleyes"
Answer me one question: If you can lock the tires with the OE brakes and OE rotors and OE pads, what are you going to gain by more stopping power? Lock the brakes quicker? You already have more braking power than the tires can handle since you locked them up!
Other than a good general write up about tires, I fail to see how that link supports your arguments or refute mine.
I think I'm up to $1.25 by now....
1)Again, you just proved my point. You are just supporting my claim that in fact you DON'T want to absorb heat into the rotor (here is your quote, and I wholeheartedly agree- "Mass of the rotor absorbs heat (higher speeds, more heat..."-now, why wouldn't you want a rotor which dissipates heat-which is what crossdrilled/slotted rotors are designed to do????)-if you don't think surface area (hint-I didn't say MASS DOESN'T ABSORB HEAT) absorbs heat-(WHICH AGAIN IS WHAT YOU DON'T WANT, AS HEAT BREAKS DOWN THE BASIC PROPERTIES OF THE PAD), then back to thermodynamics you go....
2)Roll eyes was for the brake engineer write up (good use of the howstuff works site, incorporated into his engineered write up, that's why the roll eyes, not to you)
3)Touring cars have 13" rotors for a reason, consistant braking is what they need-I've attended quite a few Touring Races in England and Italy, and I can tell you they go through brakes like nuts, is it because they want them to last, NO! Its because they can go through them as they wish. Ever seen NON-CROSSDRILLED rotors after a touring race (besides, I don't know of any Altimas/Maximas on this site which is into touring-most are for everyday driving.....
4)What does YOUR car do when you slam on the brakes? Stop on a dime, or slide??? (factory brakes cause a vehicle to slide, show me a Nissan which doesn't)-if you can tell me your vehicle doesn't lock up and slide then you are lying (again, in comparison of a factory to an aftermarket rotor/pad setup)
5)Crossdrilled/slotted rotors are just so sexy (personal opinion, of course....)
Last edited by NissanLunatic : 04-09-2002 at 04:51 AM.
1)Again, you just proved my point. You are just supporting my claim that in fact you DON'T want to absorb heat into the rotor (here is your quote, and I wholeheartedly agree- "Mass of the rotor absorbs heat (higher speeds, more heat..."-now, why wouldn't you want a rotor which dissipates heat-which is what crossdrilled/slotted rotors are designed to do????)-if you don't think surface area (hint-I didn't say MASS DOESN'T ABSORB HEAT) absorbs heat-(WHICH AGAIN IS WHAT YOU DON'T WANT, AS HEAT BREAKS DOWN THE BASIC PROPERTIES OF THE PAD), then back to thermodynamics you go....
I don't know how I am proving your point. I am 100% sure surface area does not absorb heat. Surface area dissipates heat. Mass of the rotor absorbs heat away from the pads/caliper/fluid when you brake. The surface area dissipates it to the surrounding atmosphere. This has been true since the dawn of time and will not change.
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3)Touring cars have 13" rotors for a reason, consistant braking is what they need-
Yep, stopping from 120+ mph lap after lap creates a bunch of heat. 13" rotors give that heat some place to go.
[quote]I've attended quite a few Touring Races in England and Italy[/quote[
Congrats. Have you driven in one?
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Ever seen NON-CROSSDRILLED rotors after a touring race
Many, many times, why? Oh, wait, let me go to my garage and look again...
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4)What does YOUR car do when you slam on the brakes? Stop on a dime, or slide??? (factory brakes cause a vehicle to slide, show me a Nissan which doesn't)-if you can tell me your vehicle doesn't lock up and slide then you are lying (again, in comparison of a factory to an aftermarket rotor/pad setup)
My car doesn't slide because I have enough mAd SkIllZ, yo. Seriously, it's called threshhold braking, and I know how to do it like I invented it.
Have we gotten off topic yet? I still don't understand how you (a salesman selling drilled rotors) claims to know more about braking than the professional brake engineer that wrote those articles.
ONE LAST TIME: You prove my point, you say that rotors absorb heat (that's what causes warping and cracking). THAT'S WHY WE SELL ONES THAT DISSIPATE HEAT (THAT'D BE THE DRILLED/SLOTTED). You have now said it four times, rotors absorb heat. AND AGAIN, you don't want the rotor to ABSORB heat, you want to get a rotor which dissipates it? Did that make sense
For you to say that 13" rotors "GIVE THE HEAT SOME PLACE TO GO" is truly the most ridiculous stuff I've heard in a long time.
I am a hobbyist first, and have owned multiple vehicles with crossdrilled/slotted rotors, don't attempt to discredit someone without knowing their background. Just because we sell things (and design, products, etc...), doesn't mean that we here at SWA don't play with cars or don't have extensive knowledge of the products we sell or design...
I am a hobbyist first, and have owned multiple vehicles with crossdrilled/slotted rotors,
So owning a car with cross drilled rotors make you a braking expert. Wow.
Whatever dude. I posted this thread to a couple other forums I frequent. Forums with road racing members (Speedvision touring car drivers Grant Lockwood and Roger Foo among many others) who recognize the difference between race and rice. Perhaps they'll pay us a visit and contribute to this "final discussion".
just to sum things up, you (mad matt) are saying that theres no point in upgrading brakes cause i can lock my brakes already. dude...i could lock the brakes of a 67 mustang, and those things had 4 wheel drums. now im no engineer, but that "only way to help braking is better tires" crap sounds like a load of shit.
brakes do not stop a car. the tires do.they are the gripping force that comes into contact with the ground. better tires=better braking..think about that one for awhile.
stock brakes are capable of locking up the tires. they are "adequate" for normal driving. for higher performance applications, (spirited driving, racing)..."BIGGER" brakes are better..due to their ability to take and dissipate heat from the friction created. Also for the larger sizes of caliper that can be used to apply more clamping force, which generates more heat, which larger calipers do. the larger rotors can take MORE of this heat..due to size, and dissipate it better due to more mass.
cross drilled rotors are more for looks than for performance due to todays technology in pad materials. look at any form of racing, and they are running huge regular rotors..or in some instances slotted rotors (ex: Rally keeping pads cleaner) Slotted are somewhat better due to the ability to self clean the pad. But still do not improve braking ability the way that larger size brake systems can.
This does not mean that slotted or cross drilled brake sets do not "improve" braking, but they are not the end all to a good system. There are several companies that use cross drilled and slotted rotors in conjunction with larger brake sets. for every last little improvement they provide. But, they do not brake better than a regular large diameter brake upgrade kit. Slotting/drilling is most often used to help dissapate that build up, not to dissapate heat. That is the reason you may find upgrade kits with one or both..but the kits that improve braking are always going to be larger rotors and calipers. If they aren't larger, than they arent going to be much of an improvement other than looks.
I'm not slamming anyone.but you really need to know brake technology, and what works/doesn't work.....before you can say/sell a product, boasting it's awesome abilities and being sexy. This is one reason why there are so many shitty products out there that people buy up, and then toss 2 months later...research before you buy people...
as a personal note..I would listen to someone who actually races, than a bench racers in a shop....
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Brad B. 96 SE-R
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