Dyno comparison, SSIM vs VIAS DELETE vs STOCK

[SE-R Altima Driver]

^^ Good post. By fine tuning the A/F ratio you could change how rich and lean the fuel mixture is and produce better results over the entire range with a programmed tuned map resulting in the most gains. That's why people with the neo/ safc software etc can have gains up to 20 hp.
I was told today that a leaner fuel/air mixture creates more horsepower than a rich fuel/air mixture. That's how you are able to tune you car for the extra horsepower.

[dsm_2xtreme]

Not to stray here, but do the 4G's and new Max have butterfly valves in the IM's as well?

[SE-R Altima Driver]

Yes I believe I did see one on the new 2009 maxima at the NWP show.
Two reasons, low end power in the 18-3500 rpm range as stated above and for fuel economy.

[bigjeff26]

Originally Posted by SE-R Altima Driver

^^ Good post. By fine tuning the A/F ratio you could change how rich and lean the fuel mixture is and produce better results over the entire range with a programmed tuned map resulting in the most gains. That's why people with the neo/ safc software etc can have gains up to 20 hp.
I was told today that a leaner fuel/air mixture creates more horsepower than a rich fuel/air mixture. That's how you are able to tune you car for the extra horsepower.

x937573


Tuning is the key to life....there is no point in modding a car if tuning isnt going to be done

[*Whore-Jay*]

Originally Posted by SE-R Altima Driver

-One comment about what the dyno does not show is the combination of VIAS delete and SSIM together. What is the effect with both mods on the dyno?

-More air = more power.
Sort of the same way a blower dumps or forces more air into the intake under boost.

-Don't know how much more in gains you will see but it is probably 1-5 mph in 1/4 mile or in top speed in all gears. Plus that much more hp and torque in the top end of each gear. If that is what your looking to do, either way it is 12hp for 600rpm's in each gear if you wind it out to 6600rpm in a stock motor.
Even more with the TS ECU and or cams.

-The SSIM runs were in fact done with the NWP Block plate, with a gutted IM (SSIM) the VIAS delete doesnt have to be done but with a block plate it removes just that much more obstruction.

-This is what I assumed as well and why I did the SSIM but the Dyno told me otherwise. I thought that with all the bolt-ons and a tuned AFR like in my sig, that I would see some good gains with the extra air but I didnt.

-Yes it looks like the SSIM would do more good if it had more room to rev, and yes even as is with a 6600 redline it "should" definately help at the track but I will leave that research up to someone else to confirm.

Originally Posted by PRLatinLoco

Question though:

-Is there a way to measure the total area under the power/torque curves with what the Dynojet software provided you? Do you have an excel file? Looking at curve values at specific points on the graph is easy enough, but really critical is a final measurement of TOTAL power/torque gained/lost. The VIAS delete appears to have netted gains across most of the curve, but I'd be interested in a quantifiable measurement of the total gain.


-The are ways to mod an engine, but to "un-refine" such a highly refined engine makes me a bit skeptical. I'm of the belief that designing and manufacturing an intake manifold with variable runner length technology is a costly, complex process, so understanding why Nissan took the time, effort, and cost to produce the stock VIAS version (the most technologically complex of the three tested versions) instead of a simple SSIM setup from the start may tell us what we would need to tune next to yield better results from the modded versions.

-I'm willing to bet that fuel efficiency may of had something to do with Nissan choosing the complex VIAS setup, so if someone could do an MPG test on these three setups, we could confirm or disprove this theory.

-Im not going to count the losses or gains on the graph through the entire RPM range thats just too much work for my lazy azz. Maybe when Im drinking alone and I have nothing better to do I will do some number crunching.

-I agree 100% with what you say here about how much R/D is put into an engine but what you have to understand is that the goals of the engineers and our goals are going to be different. I have 2 goals, I want the most power I can get out of the VQ35DE while maintaining every day reliablility. An uneducated guess to what the engineers goals could have been include things like reliability, efficiency, power, sound, serviceability, emissions, comfort levels, versatility, cost, maintenance, not able to trounce the new 350Z, so on and so forth.

-Good luck with a standardized test of MPG, my lead foot has been out of calibration ever since I bought this car.


**One last "oh by the way"**
Everyone here knows that all of these runs were done with a TUNED A/F Ratio right???

[SE-R Altima Driver]

Originally Posted by *Whore-Jay*

-This is what I assumed as well and why I did the SSIM but the Dyno told me otherwise. I thought that with all the bolt-ons and a tuned AFR like in my sig, that I would see some good gains with the extra air but I didnt.

-Good luck with a standardized test of MPG, my lead foot has been out of calibration ever since I bought this car.

Everyone here knows that all of these runs were done with a TUNED A/F Ratio right???

I don't know enough about tuning a car's A/F ratio on a dyno v/s AFC neo type device. One area of interest is the change in rpm to a/f ratio.
I've only read that changing the air flow at 250rpm increments is fine tuning the levels. Bigjeff26 mentioned it in another thread. Also leaner is better for producing more HP than a rich fuel/air mixture. Maybe the neo can change something else to increase the raw hp numbers by 20hp.
It could be the dyno does actually fine tune the numbers also.
Maybe that's a different type of tune.
Anyone shed some light on the subject?

I know how you feel Whore Jay with the mpg test.

If you are going to do or have the TS ECU upgrade or run a piggyback system the SSIM will increase your top end. From 3900 until 5600 they were about the same. begun to edge out the stock setup after 5600rpm with a gain of 12hp at 6300rpm
If you are not going to run that setup and stay stock ecu with only a tune then not doing the ssim might be the way to go.
Most dd your going to be in the 3-4000rpm range. Especially if it's for mpg driving.
You will see the gains from doing the VIAS delete mod. Power band is at 4200rpm's with a gain of 12tq. From 3800 all the way to redline with the VIAS delete I showed an average 8hp gain across the board with a peak of 10.5hp at 6000rpm.

[Leathe of Heaven]

If it matters to anyone, I'm getting 39MPG on the highway with cruise on.

[KRRZ350]

Here's the big thing, I now recommend to the majority of people that they spring for my $185 option (+shipping) Which includes port-matching the upper to lower manifold, as you can see this not only gives as much as 12 hp gains over just the basic SSIM, but it also gets the SSIM gains starting much earlier. Also, in regards to someone mentioning putting the stock butterfly back in, that would be silly, even for people without a block-off plate I include a modified stock one (Bolt + nut welded for extra security) I also have several NWP basic & raised logo plates in stock for those after looks, I also take a hard core polisher to them as well and pretty them up a little more. These runfiles as well as many others are on the temporary version of my website VQbeatU.com, if anybody needs an SSIM you can call me at 774-766-7462. Sincerely Kevin Goodwin Goodwin Motorsports Middleboro, Ma





Oooops, all of these are Uncorrected with a smoothing of 5



Mods list: Hotshot Headers, Several different SSIM's, NWP spacers, vafc-!!, 17* base timng, JWT pop-charger, motostorm UDP. Catback is semi-stock for now, it currently has normal pipe welded on both before and after the resonator at those two nasty spots, but I know there is more to be had especially with a 3"



The runfiles are on VQbeatU.com



Also, if you have Winpep open up runs 1249 and 1253, the difference is with and without the thick spacer betwen the upper & lower plenums, decreasing the runner length clearly gives a perfect shift in the curves. The 1260 is the untuned run, good for comparisons, I lost some of the runs after 1263 where I had the upper rpm a/f's back to those in the 1260 run, I gained over 20ft/lb's of tourqe around 3500 rpms with a crap fuel controller. Also the results between port-matching and not portmatching the upper to lower plenums is quite significant, upwards of 10hp. I am pretty confident I could have broken 250fwp easily if I did the final runs without the middle spacer, or even if I had waited for the shop to air out, I had quite the headache that day from the very low levels of oxygen in there, but I wanted to tune it with what it was going out the door with obviously.



So my findings after doing over 25 runs on this car that day, the SSIM loses peak TQ but gains up top are still very nice and by port-matching the upper/lower with and without spacers provided ALOT more gains than I was expecting and brought the peak HP back up, to the point that peak HP was still at higher levels than with the stock manifold, it did the same thing for tourqe as well but peak TQ #'s were still a little lower. Also, the NWP spacers are definitly well worth it and HIGHLY recommended, both me and the guy I rent the dyno from were absolutely amazed at the consistency between runs. You don't see that on a VQ, they always give higher #'s with subsequent back to back runs, and this car didn't do that anywhere near as much as I usually see, I have no doubt it's from the NWP spacers, some of the sets of runs it's absouletly amazing how you can't distinguish between them, also, my dyno'ing wasn't done with anal standards of temp and what not like when Aaron did his, so no doubt the 8hp/12ft/lb's peak is for real, and the install is nice and easy.



run 1249 and the two near it (not pictured, bt the DRF's are on my site) Are prety much a wash and useless, I didn't think a vaccum leak would affect the results that much, the car would barely idle and was throwing misfire codes.

[KRRZ350]

Originally Posted by SE-R Altima Driver

I've only read that changing the air flow at 250rpm increments is fine tuning the levels. Bigjeff26 mentioned it in another thread. Also leaner is better for producing more HP than a rich fuel/air mixture. Maybe the neo can change something else to increase the raw hp numbers by 20hp.
It could be the dyno does actually fine tune the numbers also.
Maybe that's a different type of tune.
Anyone shed some light on the subject?

The dyno won't tune anything, it simply measures power based off of the cars ability to spin a large drum (I'll keep this to inertia style, load based are the same except the measure the engines ability to turn the drum even while a set load via the drums brakes are applied), and obviously since RPM is a critical measurement in determining horsepower they must also measure the rpm. Now, since it's measuring the RPM, and under loaded conditions, and logging them on a chart, there is also a Wideband oxygen sensor that can be inputed into the dyno's software so it will display the a/f ratio on an rpm scale under those loaded conditions, thereby allowing the person to see those afr's on a graph that also shows rpm's and the power levels, which means you can tune those a/f ratios.

So basically, same tune, it's just a different way of doing it, you can't go to the dyno without a method of tuning the a/f ratio and expect the dyno itself to tune the car, the term "dyno tuning" refers to tuning the car on a dyno. But on a dyno you can see the a/f ratio that gives your car the most power (since it always varies). However street tuning has it's benefits as well, and is significantly more accurate over an inertia based dyno, but not nescassarily a load based dyno. Load bearing dyno's aside, think of it like street tuning is better because you have real-world conditions so a 13.2 afr will be a 13.2 afr, where as on the dyno the afr usually reads a little richer, however street tuning, even though in the case of inertia based dynos isn't as accurate for giving the real "on the street" afr, it allows you to find the afr that will net YOUR engine the most power. Also, leaner doesn't mean more power, and neither does richer. There is a perfect balance that will result in the most power, for a naturally aspirated VQ that tends to be around 13.2:1, which is actually richer than the stochiometric level of 14.7:1, a 14.7:1 afr causes (theoretically) complete combustion of every oxyygen and hydrocarbon molecule

[KRRZ350]

Here's the tourqe curves of the same runs, BUT: THE COLORS ARE NOT THE SAME

Also, the tourqe dips around 3,500 rpm's, yes it's there BUT you must remember, only the two runs in the middle have the a/f situated around those points, the other runs that look way lower probably would have been in the middle there as well because that's where I gained almost 20 ft/lb's from tuning, but there is no way they would have been back up to the high levels of the stock functioning vias manifold.

[KRRZ350]

Originally Posted by *Whore-Jay*

Some information for anyone who cares to look at it here are my results from 3 different Intake Manifold setups. All runs done on the same dyno with the same tune and around the same temp. Stock (runfile11), SSIM (runfile10), VIAS delete (runfile7). Your constructive input is welcome but I am not here to argue about any of my results, this is what I did and that is what I got end of story so please no flaming. Enjoy!!!

No flaming that's for sure, you have done an awesome thing, I'm a big fan of people who go out and dyno there cars than take the time to put togethor the images and thread and what not, contributions like this kick ass.

BUT, several things:

1, there must have been some sort of inconsistency, I don't see how run #7 made so much more than the ssim and stock run where it did, that makes no sense and it also goes against dyno results posted awhile back on maxima.org

2, Please Please Please tell me you have or can get the DRF's from these.

3, if/when you can get me the DRF's (Please e-mail them to Admin@trx500r.org) if they don't have a/f on them, could you please get me your logs from when you did tune?

[*Whore-Jay*]

First of all let me say welcome to the nissanclub KRRZ350 and please forgive me for my ignorance and/or apprehension but where the he!! did you come from with all this wonderful data, info and aftermarket service!?!?!?

[CDXX]

Lemme be the first to respond to that whorejay :P
and i can do it, cuz i had a phone conversation with KRRZ350 here ..

He's the SSIM expert on maxima.org. Aaron of NWP first gave me his information telling me that since NWP doesnt offer ssim, that kevin here would be the guys to call to get all my information, and indeed, after a lengthy conversation with him i can tell that he know his stuff...

So i can attest that is business is legitimate, i dont know how many ssim he did, but i cant tell it's many after talking to him :P
He offer service like the SSIM, and the polished SSIM(they look as good as kinetix, well as shiny at least )

Kudos to his work, Welcome to this forum, and thx for the technical information

[Black Wind]

I second CDXX sentiments!

Talked to him on 2 different occasions, both times left him a voice message, and both times he responded! He knows his SH!T!!!

You guys have to get on Maxima.Org more often!

Welcome to the Club Kevin!

I got my NWP Spacers, so I will be calling you again very soon for the port work!

BW

[SE-R Altima Driver]

Kevin KRRZ350,
Great information everyone. This is a killer thread.


I already have the SSIM, Spacers and the Block plate installed and want to get the inside and outside port and polished including the elbow section.
How long does that take and what about the cost?
Feel free to pm me.