wow...I'm impressed with how absolutely insulting everyone got...
You's is dicks...
Open your minds a little...
Oh and the physics work out if you aren't stupid...as long as you have more energy coming in than going out...you'll have more energy going in than coming out...I'm not too sure what so hard to understand about that
Please spell out said "Physics." I'm really interested. This is not sarcasm.
I'm reading about this and I find quotes like this:
"Yes already posted under transport section. And you are right it is pure snakeoil, too bad you can't run a car off of that. They misuse all sorts of scientific terms, for example they talk of changing the fuel into a "plasma". A plasma is a collection of atoms that have had one or more electons stripped from it. It would take more energy to create a plasma than you get out of it by simple combustion."
I'm no Physics professor, but it sounds like the fuel cell claims to make more energy than is possible.
I also don't believe in all the paranoia. I truly believe that if this technology worked reliably, it would be made available by any of the big car manufacturers. Which car manufacturer wouldn't want to introduce the first gasoline powered car that gets 70MPG? It's just ridiculous to believe all the major car manufacturers are hiding this technology under pressure of politicians. Aren't the politicians the people demanding 32MPG average from all car manufacturers? Paranoia is not simply a hightened sense of awareness, people. It's a disease. God, I gotta get off this. I wish I had never read this nonsense.
Please spell out said "Physics." I'm really interested. This is not sarcasm.
I'm reading about this and I find quotes like this:
"Yes already posted under transport section. And you are right it is pure snakeoil, too bad you can't run a car off of that. They misuse all sorts of scientific terms, for example they talk of changing the fuel into a "plasma". A plasma is a collection of atoms that have had one or more electons stripped from it. It would take more energy to create a plasma than you get out of it by simple combustion."
I'm no Physics professor, but it sounds like the fuel cell claims to make more energy than is possible.
The PICC claims to turn the fuel into plasma, not the HAFC.
I have very little idea how the PICC works, so I won't argue for or against it, but the HAFC just leans out the amount of fuel delivered to the engine by adjusting some sensor inputs to the ECM and replaces it with gaseous combustible hydrogen. Simple enough I think.
I really don't know what doesn't make sense to everyone...
I don't know if the "covalizer" or "vaporizer" do what they say they do. All I'm saying is as part of the whole system, everything seems to work and produce results as good or better than advertised. It makes sense and I believe it because of my experience with the system and my logic derived from my admittedly less-than-expert knowledge of engines and physics.
All I ever promised was to keep you guys informed and that's what I've been trying to do. I'm not looking for a fight here, but that's all I seem to be getting.
And I can't give you much information about motor companies as most of my research is with oil companies. I will just make the suggestion that if big oil is being threatened by the potential of cars suddenly getting double last year's model's mileage, they might talk to the motor companies and make some deals to protect their assets. Again, it's not a paranoid conspiracy, it's just business.
so if this device can double mileage , lets figure out how that can be done :
1 . the car weights the same as original
2 . the engine is the same size as original
so this device and set up are making a fuel combination thats twice as powerful and your using half the amount of fuel to run the engine . ask yourself does that sound right ?
p.s. running super lean will lower your fuel consumption because your putting less fuel to the same amount of air . this makes a problem , thats called detonation . lean mixtures increase cylinder temps and that can cause catastrophic engine failure . adjusting A/F ratio with out a meter is crazy , you can't just wing it ! i would also suggest a pyrometer to check exhaust temps !
I appreciate what you are trying to do here, and I admire the way that you handle all of these negative people. I tend to get a little more defensive with people like that because they are always so quick to judge and be negative, and if they were actually willing to see the HAFC in action they would see that it works. I have had dozens of mechanics contact me thrilled that there is finally a kit that can be purchased and installed on their cars, because they have actually made their own hydrogen generators in their garages that worked, but eventually stopped working. Hmmm, well that is because of the cars computer that is programmed to only get a certain amount of mpg. The HAFC is different because it has the 02ptimizer. This is not rocket science folks! It works! Stop picking apart the details on how it works and just see for yourself that it just does! Do you question how your cell phone works, or your T.V. etc?
We have the HAFC kit installed on a 1988 Chevy Suburban. It has 250,000 miles on it, and since 1988 it had never done better than 12mpg. We installed the HAFC, and now it gets between 26 and 29 mpg. We also took it in to get the emissions tested about 2 weeks ago and it came back at a 0 straight across for emissions! It burns completely clean! So as far as I'm concerned, who gives a crap how it works, it just does! And the only way that we can prove it is to get it on as many cars as possible.
It is understandable that people are skeptical, but it is rediculous the lengths people will go to slam the HAFC. If you don't like it, or don't believe in it, then don't buy one! Move on with your life! I'm sure you probably have something better to do. Unless it is your job of coarse, and you have been assigned to prey on innocent people who are just excited because they have finally found a solution to the high gas prices. The thing that doesn't make sense, more than how you can increase your gas mileage by 50% or more, is why these people are so concerned, or have so much time on their hands to argue that it doesn't work.
Ha Ha! See, I told you that I get defensive. Anyway, good job with what your doing, and good luck!
Hmmm, well that is because of the cars computer that is programmed to only get a certain amount of mpg.
i remain open minded and all... but the above is hands-down, most definitely one of the dumbest things ive read in this thread. you obviously DO NOT know how a car's ecu works. it is NOT programmed for a specific mpg. in fact if you were to look at all the electronics and all the code inside of an ecu, you would not find one bit of data controlling mpg. miles per gallon is a result of many different factors in a car. all the ecu does is read in data from different sensors (namely MAF/MAP, TPS, Narrowband o2) and output fuel and timing changes as necessary. now there is alot more that an ecu does, but as far as actually running an engine, thats about all there is to it. its not as though there is a sensor measuring your mpg and going "oops too much" or "oops too little".
as ive said before, i think that for the average person, buying a safcII and wideband o2 would do plenty for their mileage. just get it dyno tuned and you're set. thats a system thats been actually tested time and time again. theres plenty of support out there for it, and you can take it to just about any decent dyno shop and have someone tune it for you... oh, it also would cost only about $500ish for the aforementioned.
again, i sincerely recommend AGAINST trying to tune your car without a wideband o2 sensor. the stock narrowband o2 sensor IS NOT capable of providing accurate afr readouts.
__________________ 1994 Altima GXE - Auto
Sold 9-15-07 2003 Toyota Echo 2dr - Auto
Stock as stock can get
43.5mpg average
i remain open minded and all... but the above is hands-down, most definitely one of the dumbest things ive read in this thread. you obviously DO NOT know how a car's ecu works. it is NOT programmed for a specific mpg. in fact if you were to look at all the electronics and all the code inside of an ecu, you would not find one bit of data controlling mpg. miles per gallon is a result of many different factors in a car. all the ecu does is read in data from different sensors (namely MAF/MAP, TPS, Narrowband o2) and output fuel and timing changes as necessary. now there is alot more that an ecu does, but as far as actually running an engine, thats about all there is to it. its not as though there is a sensor measuring your mpg and going "oops too much" or "oops too little".
as ive said before, i think that for the average person, buying a safcII and wideband o2 would do plenty for their mileage. just get it dyno tuned and you're set. thats a system thats been actually tested time and time again. theres plenty of support out there for it, and you can take it to just about any decent dyno shop and have someone tune it for you... oh, it also would cost only about $500ish for the aforementioned.
again, i sincerely recommend AGAINST trying to tune your car without a wideband o2 sensor. the stock narrowband o2 sensor IS NOT capable of providing accurate afr readouts.
^^^ correct , like both of us have stated tuning a car without an O2 sensor/meter your just playing with fire .
if the original truck had a A/F ratio of lets say 12 to 1 and you increase it to 16.5 to 1 then you'll get better fuel economy . all these devices seem to do is run the car super lean and throw a tiny bit of hydrogen in the mix , but its the fact that running super lean is saving the gas . you'll get 50% better mileage by running the car %50 more lean , the gimmick portion of it seems to be that the hydrogen is making the gains , those companies can't sell you just the idea of running super lean , they have to sell something "special" , something revolutionary , hydrogen .
good luck with your vehicle , i hope you enjoy more years of good use .
I am new to this site but have been looking into the Hydrogen assist systems for some time. I have been involved with auto mechanics for over 25 years and have had the oppertunity to work on, build high performance engines, from 2 cycle to 4 stroke and some rotary applications. Here is what I know about fuel economy.
Any way you can make the fuel charge more efficient, the power and economy will increase. Now saying that, some of my customers with that extra power, tend to stomp on it a bit more to feel the increase and really defeat the purpose of any modification done.
Now, on to ways to make better power and efficiency:
1. the better you atomize fuel the better the combustion will be.
2. The denser the air charge entering the engine, the more power you will get and also leads to effiecency.
3. the better controll you have over the Air fuel ratio, the better the effiency and also power.
which leads me to the posts that have been shown here.
If Hydrogen and oxigen that is generated are injected into the plenum, it is pretty much a given it will change the fuel density and ratio. Now most modern ecm's will make the adjustments to this and adjust injector duty cycles to bring the fuel charge into "the engine builders paramiters" for optimal fuel burning and or emmissions. As I am not sure how 02 sensors will handle the hydrogen mix. These engines are usually pretty lean as it is, so not being able to controll the parts per million of hydrogen and oxigen added is a pretty risky deal to me.
now if it was electronically controlled and used possibley with a Map or maf to dertermine the exact charge I think it would work.
Although as stated, the current technology for producing the electrolisys ( seperation of h20 to HHO ) in my opinion uses more energy than it is producing in the engine. I may be wrong as I have never used hydrogen as a fuel.
I have seen new technology for producing hydrogen that would be more effective using 3 amps total and producing over 2 liters per min but I think they are still in testing. It is very interesting to me , still researchning may do my own design on a small scale to figure out if it is possible.
a] The denser the air charge entering the engine, the more power you will get and also leads to effiecency.
b] the better controll you have over the Air fuel ratio, the better the effiency and also power.
c] which leads me to the posts that have been shown here.
If Hydrogen and oxigen that is generated are injected into the plenum, it is pretty much a given it will change the fuel density and ratio. Now most modern ecm's will make the adjustments to this and adjust injector duty cycles to bring the fuel charge into "the engine builders paramiters" for optimal fuel burning and or emmissions. As I am not sure how 02 sensors will handle the hydrogen mix.
d] Although as stated, the current technology for producing the electrolisys ( seperation of h20 to HHO ) in my opinion uses more energy than it is producing in the engine. I may be wrong as I have never used hydrogen as a fuel.
e] still researchning may do my own design on a small scale to figure out if it is possible.
a] with a denser air charge you will make more power , but efficiency won't change because the computer will re-adjust to keep its original A/F ratio .
b] that is correct .
c] if you inject any hydrogen/oxygen into the plenum the computer can't "see it" and no adjustments will be made . the oxygen sensor will have no problem with hydrogen and oxygen burning because the end result is just water and water is 1 by-product of gas and air burning anyway .
d] if you split water with 1 watt of power , the hydrogen/oxygen you get won't give you 1 watt of power in return when burnt , because perpetual engines don't exist . you will lose a tiny bit of power with the conversion .
e] wasting your time
all these kits do is make your car run super lean , which will save you fuel because you will be mixing less fuel with the same amount of air . the small amount of hydrogen is insignificant to the cars overall A/F ratio plus the power to break the water into hydrogen/oxygen came from your alternator which is powered by your engine , the more electric you require the more engine power is used to do so . playing with A/f ratio's with out a O2 sensor + meter is crazy and stupid , you can't just wing it , if you run to lean you can detonate/over heat your pistons and ruin your motor . these kits use hydrogen to sound special and revolutionary otherwise people wouldn't spend lots of money just to be told to lean out there A/F ratio .
Last edited by jimnolimit : 05-12-2008 at 12:09 PM.
I am glad to see someone doing this and is brave enough to take on the negative critics.
I bet if I told people that the oil companies and car manufactures already have the technologies to make cars run cleaner and have high gas milage you would prolly say B.S. too. during the gas crisis, Jimmy Carter forced car makers to make more fuel efficient cars at a time when critics said the technologies did not exist. but they did make fleet MPG higher. today fleet MPG are lower than during the Carter admin....WTF happened? did they forget how to make fuel efficient cars?
I am glad to see someone doing this and is brave enough to take on the negative critics.
I bet if I told people that the oil companies and car manufactures already have the technologies to make cars run cleaner and have high gas milage you would prolly say B.S. too. during the gas crisis, Jimmy Carter forced car makers to make more fuel efficient cars at a time when critics said the technologies did not exist. but they did make fleet MPG higher. today fleet MPG are lower than during the Carter admin....WTF happened? did they forget how to make fuel efficient cars?
whats at work is not a "new technology" just a super-lean A/F ratio and the little hydrogen generator produces an insignifigant amount to actually do anything . less fuel with the same amount of air = better mpg , but you run the risk of engine failure . we all want to beleave were on the fore-front of new technology . sure there are more effecent ways to run a car , but greedy assholes want to keep rolling in dough . diesel get as good if not better mpg than hybrid's and diesel is more durable , diesel has always been cheaper than petrol but now look , diesel is more expensive , why you ask , i'll tell you , because a few car companies will be selling them next year and "they" don't want you to save money with diesel and at the end of the week you'll spend the same .
Last edited by jimnolimit : 05-18-2008 at 10:55 AM.
another thing to do if you want better gas milage is look into the used car market. there are cars out there from the 80s and 90s that were viewed as nerdy cars back then but get the same or better gas milage than today's hybrids.
the first gen Hyundai Excel for example. believe it or not the prices of these have jumped in recent months. CNN news reported one example selling for $6,000!!!!!
another thing to do if you want better gas milage is look into the used car market. there are cars out there from the 80s and 90s that were viewed as nerdy cars back then but get the same or better gas milage than today's hybrids.
the first gen Hyundai Excel for example. believe it or not the prices of these have jumped in recent months. CNN news reported one example selling for $6,000!!!!!
any thoughts on the mk1 MR2, i have one now, and am getting 38 mpg out of the 1.6L with 114HP. Fun Go-Kart of a car that gets great milage. Takes turnes like a bat out of hell. only 2 seats
The car is a mid/rear setup with a 50/50 distribution. Fun car to drive and saves gas. sounds good to me.
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We also took it in to get the emissions tested about 2 weeks ago and it came back at a 0 straight across for emissions! It burns completely clean! So as far as I'm concerned, who gives a crap how it works, it just does! And the only way that we can prove it is to get it on as many cars as possible.
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