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General brake job question

7K views 31 replies 6 participants last post by  wild willy 
#1 ·
I have done brakes myself before but it has been well over 10 years and I have only done it a couple times. I had the rear ones done on this Altima a few years ago when I was getting an oil change but I figure I will do it myself this time and save a couple hundred. I remember it being pretty simple but also remember having some trouble bleeding them before by having someone pump the pedal and then me open the bleeder valve. It seemed like I could never get it just right. Anyways, I guess I am just looking for some quick pointers. First of all, do I need to resurface or replace the rotors? The pads are not totally worn so there are no grooves in them and this will be the first time the front pads are replaced at 120,000 miles. Secondly, are there any better ways to bleed the lines? And any other special tools I might want to get that will make this easier now and in future brake jobs? I do tend to go easy on brakes though as you can see the rear pads lasted 100k and the front 120k. Thank you in advance.
 
#2 ·
Just because they look smooth, doesn't mean they are. The only guy that can answer your question is someone who can measure the caliper thickness, the run out to determine if they are still in spec. Most people just replace rotors when new pads are needed. I don't think your rotors owe you anything!! I get maybe 40Kmi on a set before replacement is needed, and the rears don't even last that long in my winter driving environment. Rotors are cheap these days...nobody will even turn them for you anymore.
 
#3 ·
On the bleeding thing...I find having a helper is the best way. I get a short length of tubing that fits over the bleed nipple that ends inside a glass jar. I will initially loosen the bleed screw before putting the hose on. Once loose and the hose is on and ready to go, I will have the helper depress the brake pedal (to the floor and hold it I say!). The first few pumps I will let them hit the floor with the brake pedal before tightening the bleed screw and then tell them to release the pedal once it's closed off. This gets max fluid flow from each pump. Once the fluid is coming into the tube mostly clear (ie new), I will prematurely closeoff the nipple during each pump (ie helper is never able to hit the floor again). Once clear and no more bubbles, I'll torque the bleed nipple and pop the cap back on. I personally then check the pedal feel to ensure there's no sponginess left (ie remaining air). Then we move on to the next caliper...

I've tried vacumn bleeders without much luck. I've read about the autobleed nipples, but they can fail and for me that's a huge red flag.

For those with manual transmissions, your brake cylinder fluid is shared with the clutch cylinder and thus a reason to bleed a little more often than those with auto trannies.
 
#4 ·
Thank you for your input on this. So basically you are saying I should just get rotors along with the pads so I don't have to bother measuring them or anything?

As far as the bleeding, I might be misunderstanding you. Are you saying you have them pump while the bleeder is open? I remember having them pump until the pedal was stiff, and then I open the bleeder and close it off when the pedal hits the floor (or slightly before). I do this a few times. And since I am just doing the front, I don't have to bleed the back ones, right? i start with the one farthest from the master cylinder but I forget if I leave the master cylinder cap open or closed while doing this. I want to be sure the fluid level stays full though while doing this, right?

The part I didn't understand is about the fluid coming out clear. Does that mean you will flush out all the lines before getting to the new fluid you put into it, essentially doing a complete flush?
 
#5 ·
Yes, just buy new rotors with new pads, and then follow the PAD manufacturers recommendations on properly bedding them in for the first time (basically driving with hard braking to heat them up and no stopping for 10 minutes to cool them down....think country roads).

For bleeding specifically, I have a box wrench around the bleeder screw below the tubing. I have my assistant apply pressure to the pedal, I then slowly open the screw and have them tell me when the pedal is down, I quickly tighten the screw, call clear, they remove their foot, apply pressure again and say ready. Repeat.

Usually you bleed the brakes if you have the calipers disconnected...which lets brake fluid leak out of the flex hose and air enters. To get rid of all that air, you need to flush it through with fluid...simply repeatedly compressing it by pumping the pedal up and down does nothing to get it out. You also bleed brakes to remove old, contaminated fluid from the braking cylinder to improve performance under harsh braking conditions. One should do this every 2-3 years IMHO. Depends on the climate and driver.

Since you seem to be doing just a rotor and pad job, you'll just be tying back the caliper and not disconnecting them, so you don't really have to bleed at all...unless you want to flush the lines through with new fluid that will perform to spec. Given how cheap brake fluid is and that it only takes an hour or so to do all four corners...I'd do it.

While bleeding you need to keep an eye on how much fluid you've taken out of the system and replace it before it drops too low and introduces air into the master cylinder which will then blast air bubbles all over the various lines making a lot more work and needing a lot more fluid! I usually go through a little over 1 small bottle of Prestone DOT3...so I buy 2...last time I bought the large Walmart format...now I have to dispose of more of it since you cannot 'store' brake fluid for long.

I flush (pump until clear fluid) when I bleed...it just makes so much sense. I don't care which is 'farthest' anymore...as everything goes through the ABS controller these days...and if you ever get air in there...well you'll be bleeding for a while... As above, use the "what goes out must be put back in" approach, and you just want to make sure you do it in smaller increments rather than larger. I use a flashlight to help me see the level of fluid in the reservoir...you always want to have fluid in the reservoir because the master cylinder is directly below that plastic tank.

Lastly keep brake fluid far away from painted surfaces, they aren't compatible and BF tends to eat paint for breakfast. This means don't overfill the reservoir (I always wrap a painters rag around the reservoir just in case).

Last point, I put the cap back over the reservoir whenever I'm not filling...don't screw it on, just keep it there as a dust cap to keep contaminants out!
 
#8 · (Edited)
FYI, often the fronts are not separate from the backs any longer and even with no ABS, often the system is now diagonal, meaning one front is tied to the other opposite side rear and you bleed with that in mind. It's a one-half-the-system-gone-bad braking stability thing. It's really quite hard to get air inside an ABS as the system is transparent and not even connected until activated and the ABS should at that time not even be on anyway as the pressure will be too low to activate it. But people still manage to do some pretty unusual things.

Like said, if the hydraulics were never opened up no need to bleed at all but may help as some Nissan seem to have issues with fluid getting old to corrode parts and then small amounts of the corrosion get caught to make system leaks. Bleeding can remove a lot of that detritus.

With the dropping of all asbestos in brake most now have a much higher metal content in any pads to pretty much have the discs wear as fast as the pads do now, nothing like oldschool where the discs simply did not wear at all to use over the life of the vehicle. Common now to have enough wear to need to change both pad and disc and coming from one of the tightest people you will ever find when it comes to saving money. I cut lots of discs when I was in parts and the numbers of used ones that still had enough material to cut dropped like a rock, more than 9 times out of 10 there will not be enough material to reman the part by cutting it unless it is a luxury or high end model. And be advised that you get what you pay for, most budget discs are worn enough in 3 months to be under the cutting spec again, they make them say .010" thicker than the spec to save material and you only get thick enough ones to recut maybe one time by buying the more expensive parts. Take a set of calipers next time you buy some and prepare to get a surprise there. The cheap new ones will be almost under spec right out of the box. What that cheap Chinese price does not tell you.

Make sure when all work is done and before car is moved to run the pads up tight by hitting pedal several times, you don't wanna be running through the garage wall now d'ya?
 
#12 ·
FYI, often the fronts are not separate from the backs any longer and even with no ABS, often the system is now diagonal, meaning one front is tied to the other opposite side rear and you bleed with that in mind. It's a one-half-the-system-gone-bad braking stability thing. It's really quite hard to get air inside an ABS as the system is transparent and not even connected until activated and the ABS should at that time not even be on anyway as the pressure will be too low to activate it. But people still manage to do some pretty unusual things.

...snip...

Make sure when all work is done and before car is moved to run the pads up tight by hitting pedal several times, you don't wanna be running through the garage wall now d'ya?
Just to be clear all fluid DOES go through the ABS controller first (see page BR-11 here in the BR section for my '09) so it's not separate until activated.

Good info on the metallic pads these days.

and a big x2 on the pump your brakes before driving anywhere the first time to seat those pads!!!
 
#9 ·
Hey thank you again. I totally forgot about that I won't be opening up the lines, so maybe I won't even worry about bleeding them. When I got the rear brakes done a few years ago, I had the fluid changed as well. Anyways, as far as the parts, is something like http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4663023&cc=1443141&jsn=399&jsn=399 from Rock Auto for $88 a good choice? Looks like it comes with everything I need.
 
#10 ·
Actually, now that I look at the parts from Rock Auto that I linked, the shipping is $30 so that brings it up to to 115. If you have a recommendation from Amazon or even a local auto parts store like Auto Zone, O'Reilly's or Napa that is cheaper, let me know. If it starts getting up much over $100, it won't really be saving me much to do it myself when I can get it done for 200.
 
#11 ·
I'd still consider bleeding your brakes, especially after 120k miles. Even if there's no air in the lines, just the aging of the fluid due to the heat. It adds time to the job, but is really easy.

I remember the good ol' days when we could still get ATE Super Blue. Made the changing really easy because you could see when the fluid changed from burnt amber to a nice blue.

Edit: Doug, thanks for all the helpful information!
 
#17 ·
I would like someone to expand on this in case I am missing something. Yes, it is easy enough to pump the brakes to get the fluid out if the car is on a lift and has all four wheels off. If it is raised, you can get to the bleeder without taking the wheels off, right? But in my case, the car is on the ground. How do you get to all the wheels that way? Is there any easy way I am not thinking of?
 
#14 ·
^^Ditto. If you see a lot of salt or salt air I would shy away from the high carbon performance rotors as they surface rust if you even just look at them funny.... (Raybestos Advance Tech, StopTech slotted sport, etc.) All of which I've had and like...but geez a coupla wet days parked and it feels like you need a brake job ...until the rust is buffed off!

If you do go the RA route, you can save 5% with this coupon until April1 7672682068713952
 
#15 ·
Oh, and while I'm posting lessons learned....

If/when you replace your rotors, please please wire brush, ideally with a drill, the mating surface of the hub (plate with stud bolts in it) to remove any crusted rust or other bumpy contamination. Once clean and smooth, a light coating of high temp antiseize on the hub mating surface will make rotor removal so much easier for the next guy. And if it's you, you'll love yourself later :) This should eliminate the common 'I just did my brakes and now my wheels vibrate every time I brake' problem.

I find this style of brush very effective and easy to get between the studs and the hub ring.

 
#16 ·
Thanks for the tip on the rust. And the tip about pumping the pedal and breaking them in. It's going to be tough to find a place around here to do that without traffic unless I go at midnight or something! Ha. I looked around and everything local would cost more than Rock Auto and stuff on Amazon charges tax so it would be near $100 anyways. I guess I will go with the Rock Auto set I listed since you guys have had good luck with them.
 
#18 ·
Usually you take the wheel off to replace the brake parts anyways...so it's no biggie to just do the bleed once you've finished up putting it back together and before moving on to the next wheel. I do this in my driveway with simple floor jack, one wheel at a time.

Bleeding with the wheels still on would be unnecessarily awkward.
 
#21 ·
OH, yeah, that sounds easy enough. I planned to do just one at a time anyways because it will be much easier than trying to get the front on jack stands. But I was under the impression to change the fluid in the entire system, you would have to do it all of the wheels in order to get the fluid out of the other lines.
 
#19 ·
LOL...yeah the hard part isn't heating the brakes up...it's avoiding resting at a traffic light and causing a patch of resin to adhere to the rotor surface causing uneven surfaces. Ideally you'll want rolling stops until you get to an area where you can do hard braking without freaking out the drivers behind/beside you...and then be able to keep driving without coming to a stop for another 5-10 until they've cooled off (light braking ok).

Late night at the big box mall parking lot isn't a bad idea for bedding in, particularly if it's a short hop to a highway to cool 'em off quickly. This time of year helps too...since you can still heat them up pretty quick and freezing temps help to cool them down quick too.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Here are the bedding instructions from Hawk:

Bed-in / Burnishing Instructions

After installing new brake pads, make 6-to-10 stops from approximately 30-35 MPH applying moderate pressure.
Make an additional 2-to-3 hard stops from approximately 40-45 MPH.
DO NOT DRAG BRAKES!
Allow at least 15 minutes for the brake system to cool down.
After step 4 is completed, your new Hawk Performance brake pads are ready for use.


You should be able to smell 'hot brakes' after the 3 fast/hard stops. This is how you know the resin melted and has hopefully transferred to the rotor surface like it should.

More generic info from TireRack

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=85
 
#22 ·
Again, if you're committing to the effort and cleanup to bleed a pair, might as well do all four. However, you could just bleed a pair...typically the fronts as they do 80% of the work...but you still risk internal rust issues with the rears if you ignore them.

Keep in mind that brake fluid is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water vapour), performance fluids are worse than standard (ie DOT5 is worse than DOT3). When you bleed, you remove the fluid most likely to have been exposed to moisture and replace it with fresh fluid which has better anti-corrosion properties and can withstand higher heat before boiling.

So for me, I all four corners because it's great PM for expensive brake repairs down the line. It's like doing a 4 wheel alignment every 12-18 months (depending on roads, driver, mileage etc.)...but that's another thread :)
 
#27 ·
Ok, I ordered the parts and am going to do this next weekend. It actually has been 50,000 miles since the fluid was flushed so I will do that too on all four. So if I understand this all correctly, I can just take one wheel off at a time and get fluid out of each one until it runs clear, and then move on to the next one? How many cycles of pumping does it usually take per front/rear wheel? And you said it does not matter the order? Is that all correct? How much fluid should I have on hand and do you happen to know the diameter of tubing (so I can pick some up)? Thanks for the help.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Many higher priced discs come pre-oiled to preserve the surface and you MUST clean them off or the pads don't stop as well. I too clean the hubs really well but be careful with the antisieze, it can sling out even wiped thin and contaminate the pads. I lightly oil studs too to keep the threads from rust tearing them up, some cars using the open end lug nut type.

I tend to use cheap rotors as well. But just because of the price. I could care less how fast they rust. Many people think though they are not getting good discs if they cannot be recut as many times as they want and why I posted that.

This....

'all fluid DOES go through the ABS controller first'

Says really nothing, went and looked at the brake line schematic, they ALL do that. The lines run through the ABS but are CUT OFF from it (if well designed) until it activates and how it is almost impossible to get air in the units per se. I've never had to bleed an ABS unit specifically on a car ever to get back to rock solid braking and I test it for proper function when done with the work. Think subway tunnel access door in side of tunnel, trains (brakefluid) run tunnel all day long but the door is ABS modulation port. Closed 99.5% of the time. There of course can be pressure limiting switches inside the unit to to lower rear brake pressures, those will be fed at all times obviously. So will any proportioning setup.

'causing a patch of resin to adhere to the rotor surface causing uneven surfaces.'

That is what causes most of the claims of 'warped discs' which are not commonly warped at all. The different material swedged into the rotor surface then results in uneven braking as the pad goes over hard then softer surfaces. Cut enough discs and you figure that out pretty quick. As well as this........it is virtually impossible to cut discs PERFECT with zero runout on most of the cheap disc cutting machines the parts chains use today, I proved that to people (territory managers from the chain when they didn't believe me) using a brand new machine and replicating the job on the same disc over and over, the error is built into the machine and cannot be taken out. The closest you can get is .003" and maybe .002" but simply pulling the disc off and putting it back on in a spindle resetup using exact same parts will show runout on the newly cut part that was not there in the last setup when done. It's a function of the way the disc pilot tooling works. Yet, zero customer complaints from it as they are convinced the parts are now right..............

Meaning the runout can be more than many think and car brakes fine and it adds more proof to the surfaces varying not in height or plane but in the frictional properties, i.e., the contamination from pad material. You can often see it, a blotchy coloring of the disc surface. Darker and lighter areas. I actually spent an afternoon on one of my cars on a pair of discs that seemed warped, using extremely rough sandpaper to clean the material off and it worked, the warped effect dropped off to almost zero. I before that thought any ideas of disc material changing the friction were the bunk and boy was I wrong. Now I view any cutting of discs as more to get the surface back to the same material than to correct any 'warping'.

You will notice issues far faster if both sides of the disc are varying from each other more than varying in overall plane out of flat and what the cutting machines hold closer but you must always cut BOTH sides at once and preferably the same amount of cut depth both sides too. I had one guy that kept getting complaints and found he was cutting only one side at a time and trained him to ALWAYS cut both at same time and then the issues stopped. The caliper simply moves around on the float if the overall plane is slightly off but you feel any plane to plane (disc side to side) error instantly in your foot as the piston pushes/is pushed in and out.
 
#24 ·
FYI, haven't gotten into Nissan drum brakes yet and wondering the auto adjuster type.............are they the oldschool do several stops in reverse type (star wheel adjuster) or are they the more modern sprung eccentric type that you adjust by simply pushing down the brake pedal to floor a couple times before you even move the car and they are adjusted?

I suppose looking at the service manual would show that pretty quick.
 
#25 ·
Gen 3 and 4 Alti's use star wheel for the parking brake shoes. I find the 'reverse braking' doesn't work that well, so I just pop the plug in the rear rotor hat positioned at 'noon' every year or so and manually adjust the parking brake with a slot screwdriver. If you haven't done it yourself, you won't have a clue what I'm talking about ;)
 
#26 · (Edited)
BTDT on others and right with you there...........I was never big on the reverse braking thing effectiveness as well and why I asked, the Ford newer method seems to get rid of most of that adjustment not keeping up with the brake wear thing......and why not? They adjust up every time you hit the brake pedal. You don't have to do any pre-adjusting of shoes either, simply throw the drum on with all parts at max looseness and then the brake pedal takes all that out. It makes drum installs as transparent as the discs are. Not talking about parking brake of course, rather lowly drum rear brakes.
 
#28 ·
I said this somewhere earlier...two small bottles of DOT3 or the megasize Walmart (I used Prestone). Have more than 8oz on hand...you don't want to run short, especially if this is your only car! Not expensive, can be returned unopened if purchased from big box.
s
Tubing. Clear (so you can see colour and bubbles) and more flexible rather than less. I think I used 3/16" ID? Doesn't have to be super accurate, as you can heat the business end in some boiling water for 10s or so and it will stretch quite nicely if you are a little narrow. You do want it fairly snug though. 2' should be plenty.

I used glass jars to collect so I can easily see the level and because they are less likely to tip over. No harm putting the collection jar in an oil drain pan though just in case!

Use gloves, not great on your skin.

And the bonus point for continuing to read...older calipers, especially those that haven't been touched in years (or decades) often have seized bleed nipples. Understand that if you snap one you will be replacing the entire caliper. So heat, penetrating oil, and time are your friends here. I'd start by using the drill brush mentioned above to clean and buff all around the bleed nipple threads where it meets the casting of the caliper. Hit it with WD40, wait a minute, hit it again, wait two minutes. Wipe off excess oil. Hit it with a small propane/butane torch off and on repeatedly stop if you see smoke from the penetrating oil...idea is to warm a small screw up...not melt it into slag. Allow to cool for a minute and hit it again with the penetrating oil a few more times. Let soak for 5-10min. Then and only then should you attempt to remove...and I use a two step approach: first I try a box wrench held with one hand and bumped with the palm of my wrist to see if it's going to be easy to loosen. If I can't shift it like that, I find the matching 6 sided socket to the box wrench (don't use 12 point sockets...WAY too easy to round off the bleed nipple facets)...put it on, ensure I have it square (ratchet handle 90' to bleed nipple) and again palm bump to see if it will move. More heat, more oil, more time...because trust me if that's seized and breaks, getting the rest of the caliper apart and cleaned up will be just as much fun times ten!

Fronts go faster than rears, but expect 5-10 full cycles per wheel. Yes you can go in whatever order makes sense, I tend to start with the fronts since they are by far the most important.

Keep an eye on the fluid in your collection jar, and replace fresh fluid for every ounce or two that comes out...you'll get a feel for how much you can pump before replenishing the reservoir above the master cylinder. I would check levels after your first 5 pumps and see where you are at. Again, keep a visible fluid level in the reservoir at all times.
 
#29 ·
I just thought I'd report back on this. I did the brake job today because they did not arrive last weekend and all went well. Anyways, all went well. I ended up bleeding from all wheels and I don' know if I got all of the fluid out but it appeared to be getting clear so maybe I did. The hardest part was finding a time with less traffic to break in the pads but I went out tonight and it wasn't so bad. Thank you again for all of the help!
 
#31 ·
Thank you. This is totally unrelated do this job but I am curious...I hear that the front brake pads wear faster than the rear. If that is the case, I find it interesting that I had to replace the rears for the first time at 100,000 and replaced the fronts for the first time at 120,000 and even then, they weren't totally down. On my 18 year old truck that has 140,000 miles, I replaced the rear brakes twice (once at 60,000 and again at 130,000) and have NEVER replaced the front pads. I check them every once in awhile and they are nowhere near being way down. Am I just extra easy on brakes?
 
#32 ·
Altimas eat rear brakes at an alarming rate....I do a lot , mostly city driving....If I get 15 K out of my rears on an altima I am lucky. I am at about 17K right now and they are shot...My fronts are like new, changed at the same time
 
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