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Former Honda owner
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry I am not sure I can wait. Having bad thoughts of cutting some springs this weekend. I know it's not a good idea, but the car needs to be lowered. I don't want to slam, just lower front about 2".

Has anyone looked closely at the front springs? How tight are they wound, and would they sit properly if cut?

Comments please...... I can go either way.:rolleyes:
 

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X-Mod
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I'm feeling the need to cut myself. I haven't bothered to check the spring 'perches', but I think I'm safe in assuming that the springs are flat on both ends. If they were cut, They would need some kind of tapered circular insert. Whether something like this is available or would have to be custom made I don't know. I could calculate the individual F. spring weight using the vehicle weight and F/R weight distribution. I think that if I knew the compressed and uncompressed lengths and number of coils(-1), I could calculate the theoretical drop and increase in rate. And if it doesn't work out I'll replace 'em in spring or whenever they become available.
 

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Destroyer of Sidewalls
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You guys think the Altima needs to be lowered? You should have seen the front wheel well gap on my 200SX.

Unless you go really extreme, you're probably not going to hurt anything too bad, but you will screw up what's a pretty good handling car. If you lower the car you're reducing your suspension travel, which means your car's going to spend a lot of time bouncing off of the bump stops, which isn't good for it obviously (and especially not good for the struts). You really need stiffer springs to compensate for lowering (and then more aggresive shocks to compensate for the stiffer springs).

I guess if you just like cruising around it's not a major problem, but if you like tossing your car around turns like I do I wouldn't do it. If you hit a nice bump while cornering hard the suspension will hit the bump stop, which is basically like not having any springs at all, which means you can enjoy the ride while your car swaps ends. It all depends on your priorities.
 

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That's not necessarily true. Any lowering springs reduce travel, but the increased spring rate makes up for it. The same bump or pothole will not deflect the suspension by the same amount. And cutting coils does INCREASE spring rate! I don't expect to sacrifice handling one bit, I expect significantly better handling.
 

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good god do not cut your springs!!!!!!!!! the suspension is decent on the alty, but for the love 0f god! you have soft springs!!!!!!!!!!! if you cut your gonna 1. toast yours "STOCK" shocks, and 2. gonna make it ride like a boat! DON"T DO IT!!!!!!! AUGH!!!!! GHETTO [email protected]!!!!!!! DO NOT CUT EM!!!!!
 

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Destroyer of Sidewalls
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Cutting springs do not make them stiffer! How would that happen? If they were 200 lb/in springs before you cut them, they're still 200 lb/in afterwards. They're just shorter. That's why Eibach, H&R, etc., lowering springs always have higher spring rates.
 

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Altimat said:
. And cutting coils does INCREASE spring rate! I don't expect to sacrifice handling one bit, I expect significantly better handling.
ok, altimat, you are smoking crack. how does cutting your springs increase your spring rate? um HELLO! you still have a XXXLB spring rate! the exact same as you had before! but now you have less spring to take up the shock. SO, when your springs would have traveled 2" before, they will travel 2" still! SO, if you have (theoretical numbers) 4" of travel before you bottom out your shocks, you will now have 2" less (if you cut 2" of travel off). so now you only have 2" till you bottom out your shocks. . . . ok. . . . . another problem. If you lower any car you will have camber problems, and i'm assuming that if you're not gonna fork out the $ for springs and shocks, you're not gonna fork out the $ for a camber kit. so you might get an increase of performance at the envelope due to increased negative camber, but before you get near the envelope you will actually have a decrease in performance because you don't have the whole tire on the ground. or at least it's not equally weighted. you may also lower your center of gravity which may help, but it's not worth it. just wait or have a custom spring place bend you springs. there's a place here in pittsburgh that does it. it's actually cheaper than buying springs. also, you can have everything custom done. bottom line, just wait for real springs.
 

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Destroyer of Sidewalls
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If you lower any car you will have camber problems, and i'm assuming that if you're not gonna fork out the $ for
springs and shocks, you're not gonna fork out the $ for a camber kit
Yeah, you're going to increase negative camber (the bottom of the wheel will stick out more than the top) but that's not a huge problem. When I put Eibach's on my SE-R (lowered the car about an inch) I got more negative camber, but it was never more than -2 degrees. That actually helps cornering. I ran the car that way for 40,000 plus miles with no tire wear or stability problems at all. What's really going to mess you up if you don't get an alignment is that your toe on your suspension is going to be messed up. You can destroy tires in about 500 miles that way.

In any event, while a lower center of gravity and more negative camber help cornering, that won't make up for all of the suspension travel you've lost (without getting stiffer springs).
 

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Former Honda owner
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
flyry110 said:

..and i'm assuming that if you're not gonna fork out the $ for springs and shocks, you're not gonna fork out the $ for a camber kit.
it not money i'm short on, it is time. read my post above, i am just very impatient. when the springs come out i will swap them. when the struts are available, i will get those too. believe me i want the best of handling, and looks.

flyry110 said:
bottom line, just wait for real springs.
if i could i would. :D
 

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autox02altima said:
Cutting springs do not make them stiffer! How would that happen? If they were 200 lb/in springs before you cut them, they're still 200 lb/in afterwards. They're just shorter. That's why Eibach, H&R, etc., lowering springs always have higher spring rates.
WRONG! The spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of coils in the spring (All other things being equal). So a shorter spring is a stiffer spring. If you cut a 400lb. rated coil in half, each half would be an 800 lb. rated coil.

Link
 

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Former Honda owner
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Altimat said:
I'm feeling the need to cut myself. I haven't bothered to check the spring 'perches', but I think I'm safe in assuming that the springs are flat on both ends. If they were cut, They would need some kind of tapered circular insert. Whether something like this is available or would have to be custom made I don't know. I could calculate the individual F. spring weight using the vehicle weight and F/R weight distribution. I think that if I knew the compressed and uncompressed lengths and number of coils(-1), I could calculate the theoretical drop and increase in rate. And if it doesn't work out I'll replace 'em in spring or whenever they become available.
got bored and took mine apart just now. after taking the struts out and removing the springs i wouldn't advise it. :mad: the coils are flat on top and almost on bottom. very large with big gaps between each coil. they are nothing like the honda civic springs i am used to. (small tight coils) i think if you cut, the bottom would not seat properly as you said. something would need to be fabricated to keep bottom from popping off. not sure am ready to do this...wouldn't know what to use.

oh well, what can i say. guess i can go off-roading tommorow in the altima.:angel1:
 

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Destroyer of Sidewalls
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Nope, I'm not wrong. Your link is wrong. This guy obviously isn't an engineer.

Using his example of putting 200lbs on a 10 coil 200lb/in spring, he's correct that each coil would move 1/10 in. That's because the load is equally distributed in each coil. Where he's wrong is what happens when you cut the spring in half. Now the 200lbs has to be distributed over half the number of coils, so each coil will now move 1/5 in. Each coil now has to carry a greater percentage of the load. The spring still has a rate of 200 lbs/in, and it will still compress 1 in if you put 200 lbs on it.

Think of this another way. If you had 10 10lb/in springs holding up 100 lbs, each spring would compress 1 inch. If you take away 5 of the springs, would the others suddenly become twice as strong? No! They'd each have to carry 20 lbs, so they'd each compress 2 inches.

By the posted link's logic, if you managed to cut your spring into 100 pieces and then glue the pieces back together again, you'd have a spring that looked exactly like the stock spring, but somehow was 100 times stiffer. That just doesn't make logical sense.

Of course all of this is irrelevant if you're lowering your car for looks. But if you want handling, cutting your springs doesn't work.
 

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NO CUTTING NEEDED - GOT THE SOLUTION - DID IT TONIGHT

I just had my front lowered to match the back (smoking!!!!) without cutting the springs. We heat pressed them (process of compressing the springs while heating them up, permanently lowering the spring).

The ride has improved dramatically (now it feels more like my old bimmer) the bounce I used to get when cornering is gone. You heard correct, this process actually reduced the bounce vs. the other way around.

The car looks great. I could take a pic, but the car is dirty (will have it washed this weekend and post then)

Not bad for a mere $85.00........ Can't beat it with a yard stick..
 

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Still wrong. You must not be an engineer either. Grab a physics book. Suppose we apply a force(weight) sufficient to compress a 6-coil spring by 1", each coil being compressed by 1/6". Let us also compress our cut 5-coil spring 1", each coil now being compressed by 1/5". According to Hooke's Law (F = kx, force applied equals the spring constant times spring displacement), the force needed to compress a single coil by 1/5" must be 20% greater. A 6 coil spring cut to 5 coils will be 20% stiffer.

Those two halves of the coil placed back on top of each other would equal the original spring rate, or 1/2 of the rate of each half by itself.
 

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Destroyer of Sidewalls
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According to Hooke's Law (F = kx, force applied equals the spring constant times spring displacement), the
force needed to compress a single coil by 1/5" must be 20% greater.
By the way, the following is not a flame :)

But you're assuming that the spring constant must have changed when you cut one coil off. It hasn't. x still equals one inch, k is still the same, and therefore the force is still the same. You can't assume that k is changing, put it in the equation, and then use the result to prove that k changed.

Basically what you're telling me is that cutting a spring magically makes the steel in both halves twice as strong. Explain to me how that happens.

Oh, and I do have an engineering degree.
 

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buwahahahahaha engineer owns J00!!!
 

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Altimat said:
Still wrong. You must not be an engineer either. Grab a physics book. Suppose we apply a force(weight) sufficient to compress a 6-coil spring by 1", each coil being compressed by 1/6". Let us also compress our cut 5-coil spring 1", each coil now being compressed by 1/5". According to Hooke's Law (F = kx, force applied equals the spring constant times spring displacement), the force needed to compress a single coil by 1/5" must be 20% greater. A 6 coil spring cut to 5 coils will be 20% stiffer.

Those two halves of the coil placed back on top of each other would equal the original spring rate, or 1/2 of the rate of each half by itself.
In laymen's terms, if you took a long thin stick and pushed down on it, it would bend a lot more easily than a shorter stick of the same thickness. This is because force will always distribute evenly; thus a longer spring will compress more substantially than a shorter spring would. That is why shorter springs are stiffer and get the higher rating; there is physically less spring to distribute the force.
 

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Former Honda owner
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
not an engineer, but i will side that it gets stiffer. seams that from my experience lowering cars, this is the case.
 

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tullio said:
NO CUTTING NEEDED - GOT THE SOLUTION - DID IT TONIGHT

I just had my front lowered to match the back (smoking!!!!) without cutting the springs. We heat pressed them (process of compressing the springs while heating them up, permanently lowering the spring).

The ride has improved dramatically (now it feels more like my old bimmer) the bounce I used to get when cornering is gone. You heard correct, this process actually reduced the bounce vs. the other way around.

The car looks great. I could take a pic, but the car is dirty (will have it washed this weekend and post then)

Not bad for a mere $85.00........ Can't beat it with a yard stick..
Had it done in Rockland NY - by Audio Innovators, Inc. (they do audio, video, performance upgrades and the works - Fast and Furious type of place).

They basically heated the springs while compressing them and permanently resizing them...

AII, 78 Route 9W, Haverstraw, NY 10927 - 845-942-5529 ASK FOR ALEX....

Here are the pics....
 
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