OH, yeah, that sounds easy enough. I planned to do just one at a time anyways because it will be much easier than trying to get the front on jack stands. But I was under the impression to change the fluid in the entire system, you would have to do it all of the wheels in order to get the fluid out of the other lines.
General brake job question
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Again, if you're committing to the effort and cleanup to bleed a pair, might as well do all four. However, you could just bleed a pair...typically the fronts as they do 80% of the work...but you still risk internal rust issues with the rears if you ignore them.
Keep in mind that brake fluid is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water vapour), performance fluids are worse than standard (ie DOT5 is worse than DOT3). When you bleed, you remove the fluid most likely to have been exposed to moisture and replace it with fresh fluid which has better anti-corrosion properties and can withstand higher heat before boiling.
So for me, I all four corners because it's great PM for expensive brake repairs down the line. It's like doing a 4 wheel alignment every 12-18 months (depending on roads, driver, mileage etc.)...but that's another thread
Keep in mind that brake fluid is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water vapour), performance fluids are worse than standard (ie DOT5 is worse than DOT3). When you bleed, you remove the fluid most likely to have been exposed to moisture and replace it with fresh fluid which has better anti-corrosion properties and can withstand higher heat before boiling.
So for me, I all four corners because it's great PM for expensive brake repairs down the line. It's like doing a 4 wheel alignment every 12-18 months (depending on roads, driver, mileage etc.)...but that's another thread
Many higher priced discs come pre-oiled to preserve the surface and you MUST clean them off or the pads don't stop as well. I too clean the hubs really well but be careful with the antisieze, it can sling out even wiped thin and contaminate the pads. I lightly oil studs too to keep the threads from rust tearing them up, some cars using the open end lug nut type.
I tend to use cheap rotors as well. But just because of the price. I could care less how fast they rust. Many people think though they are not getting good discs if they cannot be recut as many times as they want and why I posted that.
This....
'all fluid DOES go through the ABS controller first'
Says really nothing, went and looked at the brake line schematic, they ALL do that. The lines run through the ABS but are CUT OFF from it (if well designed) until it activates and how it is almost impossible to get air in the units per se. I've never had to bleed an ABS unit specifically on a car ever to get back to rock solid braking and I test it for proper function when done with the work. Think subway tunnel access door in side of tunnel, trains (brakefluid) run tunnel all day long but the door is ABS modulation port. Closed 99.5% of the time. There of course can be pressure limiting switches inside the unit to to lower rear brake pressures, those will be fed at all times obviously. So will any proportioning setup.
'causing a patch of resin to adhere to the rotor surface causing uneven surfaces.'
That is what causes most of the claims of 'warped discs' which are not commonly warped at all. The different material swedged into the rotor surface then results in uneven braking as the pad goes over hard then softer surfaces. Cut enough discs and you figure that out pretty quick. As well as this........it is virtually impossible to cut discs PERFECT with zero runout on most of the cheap disc cutting machines the parts chains use today, I proved that to people (territory managers from the chain when they didn't believe me) using a brand new machine and replicating the job on the same disc over and over, the error is built into the machine and cannot be taken out. The closest you can get is .003" and maybe .002" but simply pulling the disc off and putting it back on in a spindle resetup using exact same parts will show runout on the newly cut part that was not there in the last setup when done. It's a function of the way the disc pilot tooling works. Yet, zero customer complaints from it as they are convinced the parts are now right..............
Meaning the runout can be more than many think and car brakes fine and it adds more proof to the surfaces varying not in height or plane but in the frictional properties, i.e., the contamination from pad material. You can often see it, a blotchy coloring of the disc surface. Darker and lighter areas. I actually spent an afternoon on one of my cars on a pair of discs that seemed warped, using extremely rough sandpaper to clean the material off and it worked, the warped effect dropped off to almost zero. I before that thought any ideas of disc material changing the friction were the bunk and boy was I wrong. Now I view any cutting of discs as more to get the surface back to the same material than to correct any 'warping'.
You will notice issues far faster if both sides of the disc are varying from each other more than varying in overall plane out of flat and what the cutting machines hold closer but you must always cut BOTH sides at once and preferably the same amount of cut depth both sides too. I had one guy that kept getting complaints and found he was cutting only one side at a time and trained him to ALWAYS cut both at same time and then the issues stopped. The caliper simply moves around on the float if the overall plane is slightly off but you feel any plane to plane (disc side to side) error instantly in your foot as the piston pushes/is pushed in and out.
I tend to use cheap rotors as well. But just because of the price. I could care less how fast they rust. Many people think though they are not getting good discs if they cannot be recut as many times as they want and why I posted that.
This....
'all fluid DOES go through the ABS controller first'
Says really nothing, went and looked at the brake line schematic, they ALL do that. The lines run through the ABS but are CUT OFF from it (if well designed) until it activates and how it is almost impossible to get air in the units per se. I've never had to bleed an ABS unit specifically on a car ever to get back to rock solid braking and I test it for proper function when done with the work. Think subway tunnel access door in side of tunnel, trains (brakefluid) run tunnel all day long but the door is ABS modulation port. Closed 99.5% of the time. There of course can be pressure limiting switches inside the unit to to lower rear brake pressures, those will be fed at all times obviously. So will any proportioning setup.
'causing a patch of resin to adhere to the rotor surface causing uneven surfaces.'
That is what causes most of the claims of 'warped discs' which are not commonly warped at all. The different material swedged into the rotor surface then results in uneven braking as the pad goes over hard then softer surfaces. Cut enough discs and you figure that out pretty quick. As well as this........it is virtually impossible to cut discs PERFECT with zero runout on most of the cheap disc cutting machines the parts chains use today, I proved that to people (territory managers from the chain when they didn't believe me) using a brand new machine and replicating the job on the same disc over and over, the error is built into the machine and cannot be taken out. The closest you can get is .003" and maybe .002" but simply pulling the disc off and putting it back on in a spindle resetup using exact same parts will show runout on the newly cut part that was not there in the last setup when done. It's a function of the way the disc pilot tooling works. Yet, zero customer complaints from it as they are convinced the parts are now right..............
Meaning the runout can be more than many think and car brakes fine and it adds more proof to the surfaces varying not in height or plane but in the frictional properties, i.e., the contamination from pad material. You can often see it, a blotchy coloring of the disc surface. Darker and lighter areas. I actually spent an afternoon on one of my cars on a pair of discs that seemed warped, using extremely rough sandpaper to clean the material off and it worked, the warped effect dropped off to almost zero. I before that thought any ideas of disc material changing the friction were the bunk and boy was I wrong. Now I view any cutting of discs as more to get the surface back to the same material than to correct any 'warping'.
You will notice issues far faster if both sides of the disc are varying from each other more than varying in overall plane out of flat and what the cutting machines hold closer but you must always cut BOTH sides at once and preferably the same amount of cut depth both sides too. I had one guy that kept getting complaints and found he was cutting only one side at a time and trained him to ALWAYS cut both at same time and then the issues stopped. The caliper simply moves around on the float if the overall plane is slightly off but you feel any plane to plane (disc side to side) error instantly in your foot as the piston pushes/is pushed in and out.
FYI, haven't gotten into Nissan drum brakes yet and wondering the auto adjuster type.............are they the oldschool do several stops in reverse type (star wheel adjuster) or are they the more modern sprung eccentric type that you adjust by simply pushing down the brake pedal to floor a couple times before you even move the car and they are adjusted?
I suppose looking at the service manual would show that pretty quick.
I suppose looking at the service manual would show that pretty quick.
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Gen 3 and 4 Alti's use star wheel for the parking brake shoes. I find the 'reverse braking' doesn't work that well, so I just pop the plug in the rear rotor hat positioned at 'noon' every year or so and manually adjust the parking brake with a slot screwdriver. If you haven't done it yourself, you won't have a clue what I'm talking about
BTDT on others and right with you there...........I was never big on the reverse braking thing effectiveness as well and why I asked, the Ford newer method seems to get rid of most of that adjustment not keeping up with the brake wear thing......and why not? They adjust up every time you hit the brake pedal. You don't have to do any pre-adjusting of shoes either, simply throw the drum on with all parts at max looseness and then the brake pedal takes all that out. It makes drum installs as transparent as the discs are. Not talking about parking brake of course, rather lowly drum rear brakes.
Ok, I ordered the parts and am going to do this next weekend. It actually has been 50,000 miles since the fluid was flushed so I will do that too on all four. So if I understand this all correctly, I can just take one wheel off at a time and get fluid out of each one until it runs clear, and then move on to the next one? How many cycles of pumping does it usually take per front/rear wheel? And you said it does not matter the order? Is that all correct? How much fluid should I have on hand and do you happen to know the diameter of tubing (so I can pick some up)? Thanks for the help.
Again, if you're committing to the effort and cleanup to bleed a pair, might as well do all four. However, you could just bleed a pair...typically the fronts as they do 80% of the work...but you still risk internal rust issues with the rears if you ignore them.
Keep in mind that brake fluid is hygroscopic (loves to absorb water vapour), performance fluids are worse than standard (ie DOT5 is worse than DOT3). When you bleed, you remove the fluid most likely to have been exposed to moisture and replace it with fresh fluid which has better anti-corrosion properties and can withstand higher heat before boiling.
So for me, I all four corners because it's great PM for expensive brake repairs down the line. It's like doing a 4 wheel alignment every 12-18 months (depending on roads, driver, mileage etc.)...but that's another thread
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I said this somewhere earlier...two small bottles of DOT3 or the megasize Walmart (I used Prestone). Have more than 8oz on hand...you don't want to run short, especially if this is your only car! Not expensive, can be returned unopened if purchased from big box.
s
Tubing. Clear (so you can see colour and bubbles) and more flexible rather than less. I think I used 3/16" ID? Doesn't have to be super accurate, as you can heat the business end in some boiling water for 10s or so and it will stretch quite nicely if you are a little narrow. You do want it fairly snug though. 2' should be plenty.
I used glass jars to collect so I can easily see the level and because they are less likely to tip over. No harm putting the collection jar in an oil drain pan though just in case!
Use gloves, not great on your skin.
And the bonus point for continuing to read...older calipers, especially those that haven't been touched in years (or decades) often have seized bleed nipples. Understand that if you snap one you will be replacing the entire caliper. So heat, penetrating oil, and time are your friends here. I'd start by using the drill brush mentioned above to clean and buff all around the bleed nipple threads where it meets the casting of the caliper. Hit it with WD40, wait a minute, hit it again, wait two minutes. Wipe off excess oil. Hit it with a small propane/butane torch off and on repeatedly stop if you see smoke from the penetrating oil...idea is to warm a small screw up...not melt it into slag. Allow to cool for a minute and hit it again with the penetrating oil a few more times. Let soak for 5-10min. Then and only then should you attempt to remove...and I use a two step approach: first I try a box wrench held with one hand and bumped with the palm of my wrist to see if it's going to be easy to loosen. If I can't shift it like that, I find the matching 6 sided socket to the box wrench (don't use 12 point sockets...WAY too easy to round off the bleed nipple facets)...put it on, ensure I have it square (ratchet handle 90' to bleed nipple) and again palm bump to see if it will move. More heat, more oil, more time...because trust me if that's seized and breaks, getting the rest of the caliper apart and cleaned up will be just as much fun times ten!
Fronts go faster than rears, but expect 5-10 full cycles per wheel. Yes you can go in whatever order makes sense, I tend to start with the fronts since they are by far the most important.
Keep an eye on the fluid in your collection jar, and replace fresh fluid for every ounce or two that comes out...you'll get a feel for how much you can pump before replenishing the reservoir above the master cylinder. I would check levels after your first 5 pumps and see where you are at. Again, keep a visible fluid level in the reservoir at all times.
s
Tubing. Clear (so you can see colour and bubbles) and more flexible rather than less. I think I used 3/16" ID? Doesn't have to be super accurate, as you can heat the business end in some boiling water for 10s or so and it will stretch quite nicely if you are a little narrow. You do want it fairly snug though. 2' should be plenty.
I used glass jars to collect so I can easily see the level and because they are less likely to tip over. No harm putting the collection jar in an oil drain pan though just in case!
Use gloves, not great on your skin.
And the bonus point for continuing to read...older calipers, especially those that haven't been touched in years (or decades) often have seized bleed nipples. Understand that if you snap one you will be replacing the entire caliper. So heat, penetrating oil, and time are your friends here. I'd start by using the drill brush mentioned above to clean and buff all around the bleed nipple threads where it meets the casting of the caliper. Hit it with WD40, wait a minute, hit it again, wait two minutes. Wipe off excess oil. Hit it with a small propane/butane torch off and on repeatedly stop if you see smoke from the penetrating oil...idea is to warm a small screw up...not melt it into slag. Allow to cool for a minute and hit it again with the penetrating oil a few more times. Let soak for 5-10min. Then and only then should you attempt to remove...and I use a two step approach: first I try a box wrench held with one hand and bumped with the palm of my wrist to see if it's going to be easy to loosen. If I can't shift it like that, I find the matching 6 sided socket to the box wrench (don't use 12 point sockets...WAY too easy to round off the bleed nipple facets)...put it on, ensure I have it square (ratchet handle 90' to bleed nipple) and again palm bump to see if it will move. More heat, more oil, more time...because trust me if that's seized and breaks, getting the rest of the caliper apart and cleaned up will be just as much fun times ten!
Fronts go faster than rears, but expect 5-10 full cycles per wheel. Yes you can go in whatever order makes sense, I tend to start with the fronts since they are by far the most important.
Keep an eye on the fluid in your collection jar, and replace fresh fluid for every ounce or two that comes out...you'll get a feel for how much you can pump before replenishing the reservoir above the master cylinder. I would check levels after your first 5 pumps and see where you are at. Again, keep a visible fluid level in the reservoir at all times.
I just thought I'd report back on this. I did the brake job today because they did not arrive last weekend and all went well. Anyways, all went well. I ended up bleeding from all wheels and I don' know if I got all of the fluid out but it appeared to be getting clear so maybe I did. The hardest part was finding a time with less traffic to break in the pads but I went out tonight and it wasn't so bad. Thank you again for all of the help!
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:bigok: Way to go! Lots of beer money left over when you DIY....Not to mention satisfaction knowing that it was done right..
Thank you. This is totally unrelated do this job but I am curious...I hear that the front brake pads wear faster than the rear. If that is the case, I find it interesting that I had to replace the rears for the first time at 100,000 and replaced the fronts for the first time at 120,000 and even then, they weren't totally down. On my 18 year old truck that has 140,000 miles, I replaced the rear brakes twice (once at 60,000 and again at 130,000) and have NEVER replaced the front pads. I check them every once in awhile and they are nowhere near being way down. Am I just extra easy on brakes?
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Altimas eat rear brakes at an alarming rate....I do a lot , mostly city driving....If I get 15 K out of my rears on an altima I am lucky. I am at about 17K right now and they are shot...My fronts are like new, changed at the same time
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